Li Keng Wong
LI KENG WONG
Interviewer: Edan Qian & Sakura Huang
Support: Sandy Liao
Interview date: August 26, 2007
EDAN: So let’s start off with, where were you born, and what year were you born in?
LI KENG: I was born in China, in 1926.
EDAN: And that part of China was Toisan right?
LI KENG: Yes, it’s in southern China, Guangdong province.
EDAN: When did you first come to Chinatown?
LI KENG: Oakland Chinatown? When I first set foot in Oakland Chinatown, it was on December the second, 1933.
EDAN: Why did your family move here?
LI KENG: Because my father wanted for us to have a better life.
EDAN: How was the process coming here, what steps did you take to come to Chinatown?
LI KENG: Well actually, you know, if I have to go back that far, you have to remember my father prepared all the work and papers and make sure that we had the tickets and make sure that we were meeting the requirements- He wanted- the requirement of answering the questions that would be asked.
EDAN: So I read in your book, you actually had to lie about some of the questions they asked towards you.
LI KENG: - We had no choice, we had no choice.
EDAN: So do you think you did well during that interrogation part?
LI KENG: Oh absolutely, yeah.
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
EDAN: So where in Chinatown did you live?
LI KENG: 723—at that time, the stores were a little bit different, the numbers were a little bit different. We were supposed to be living in 719 Webster Street and later on after it was demolished, they rebuilt it and changed the number to 723, but it’s the same place, you understand what I’m saying? It’s the same place. So it’s right in the heart of Webster Street, between 7th and 8th.
EDAN: So when you came here, how was “American China” different that “Authentic China”; from where you came from?
LI KENG: Oh very different. The first thing you must remember is that we lived in a rural village, and there weren’t many people. Maybe about a hundred, and the houses were built together. We couldn’t even go to the towns because we were so isolated. And over here {America}, when we got here, it was really, to be here was so different. I felt crowded, people were here, people were there and people were walking. And in china, in the village, I never saw that many people before.
EDAN: Well culturally, how is it different?
LI KENG: Culturally? Well actually, one of the good things for moving into Chinatown is that the people there spoke our Cantonese, theyip dialect, toisanese dialect, and so it was wonderful that we didn’t live, let’s say, somewhere in Arizona or somewhere in up in the sticks. So we were able to adjust ourselves very quickly because the people spoke to us in Cantonese.
EDAN: So when you came to Chinatown, what were your first impressions of Chinatown?
LI KENG: Well, my first impression was, I looked at the sidewalk, and I said, “Gee, how come this isn’t gold? What happened?” So, anyway, in my book I told you my father said, “What’s the matter?” Well, you know, when we were in China, people in the village, they didn’t know, they said, “Oh! You’re gonna go to Gang Shan! You gonna see everything gonna be gold!” They gave us the wrong idea, and I thought that I would be seeing gold. I think that a lot of people from different countries had the same concept of coming to the United States.
EDAN: How was it similar?
LI KENG: The only thing I found similar was the dialect we spoke; we were similar in that. Of course, the food was not different. Especially Chinese food, it was similar in that way. And of course, the clothing was NOT similar. We came from the village where they wore clothing-pajama style, but my father had some clothes made for us in Hong Kong, so we did wear whatever the people were wearing right here.
2
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
EDAN: So when you came here, what were your parents doing, what were they doing as an occupation or for a living?
LI KENG: At that time, my father had a lottery gambling place. In the store, but we didn’t know about it. So we found out for the first time what kind of work he was doing. But of course he did other things when he was here, before. But at that time when we came, we had an illegal lottery gambling place.
EDAN: So how did you find out about the gambling business?
LI KENG: Well, as soon as we moved in, Ba Ba said, “ the first room is for people to buy lottery tickets, second room is for the girls, third room is for Mama and baba, and the last room is for the kitchen.” So, the customers would come in, not a big crowd, they would drop in, buy the tickets, go out, drop in, buy the tickets…it was seven days a week.
EDAN: Can you tell me of any experiences you’ve had with the gambling business? Because, I recall from your book, a lot of events happened because of the Great Depression, so did anything happen with your father because of this gambling business?
LI KENG: Oh, he was arrested a number of times, and I put that in my book. What we call that---what Chinatown calls that, in Cantonese, “Loi Lee Loi Uh”, which means, the cops are here. So often times they would swoop down, with the detectives and non-uniformed police officers. And so anyway, they would dash in through the gambling room, and arrest the customers too if there were any customers, but the customers weren’t proud of the business because they would drop in and drop out.
EDAN: So my last question was, can you describe any events that happened because of the gambling that your father did during the great depression?
LI KENG: It was a very traumatic when the police officers ran in, dashing through the gambling room. Sometimes they would encounter customers and the customers would be arrested the same time and after they hurt my father and the worker and take the customers out and put them out in the paddy wagon. And they would take them to jail, but in a couple of hours, they would be released because someone bailed them out, and I think that’s the person we call, the goal between his and liaison, between Chinatown and the police department.
EDAN: So what did your gambling room look like, how did your room look like?
LI KENG: It was just a big room with a table and the key note tickets all laid out and the customer would come in, “Oh I think im gonna mark certain words,”---the Chinese have words instead of numbers---and they would mark 1, 5, 10, 7 spots, 9 spots, 10 spots, and it all depends how much they want to play too, they could play for a nickel, a dime, 25 cents. If the payoff, let’s
3
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
say they hit the jackpot, but the jackpot wasn’t very big during those times. Maybe 25 dollars, but that was a lot of money, but they would not get the jackpot very often; but they always hoped they would.
EDAN: So, when you first came here, in your book, you said you had a celebration dinner how was that first meal in America, what kind of food do you remember?
LI KENG: I think my father made a pork chop dinner that first time, and we were thrilled. That was the first time we encountered pork chop and gravy, and we had mashed potatoes and that was unusual because in China all we ate was rice. But he didn’t serve bread with it, but he had some veggies with it and to us, that was a very scrumptious meal.
EDAN: Ok, so now were going to move onto your schools, which schools did you attend when you were young?
LI KENG: Lincoln grammar school, on 11th and Harrison.
EDAN: And you also attended Chinese school?
LI KENG: Yes, the name of the Chinese school is Wa kay oh hou kao--- I’m speaking to you in Toisanese, Wa kay oh hou ka. We went to Chinese school every day, from four to six, and on Saturdays from 9 to 12.
EDAN: So how was Chinese school different than American school?
LI KENG: Chinese school was merely rote learning. And you memorize the things on the page, and after that, you repeat it to the teacher and so we also practiced calligraphy. That’s about all we did in Chinese school, we didn’t have science, we didn’t have math, we did not have grammar, that wasn’t it, all we did was learn how to write and read Chinese, and how to practice our calligraphy, that was all.
EDAN: In Lincoln, how did you adjust?
LI KENG: How did I adjust? No problem, no problem adjusting because most of all the kids were Chinese!
EDAN: So after school what did you do for fun, or what did you do overall?
LI KENG: After regular school? We had nothing, no time. In the afternoon when we were left out from Lincoln, I would dash home and I would help my parents in the lottery place and help them place the lottery tickets, and I would look at the clock and say, “Oh, its time for me to go to Chinese school!” Most of the time I just grabbed a piece of wonder bread, and just have a
4
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
piece of bread and a glass of water, and I would just dash off to Chinese school. No fun, no time to play.
EDAN: Well, what did you do after Chinese school?
LI KENG: We came home, ate a late supper and studied, washed up and went to bed, No time to play!
EDAN: Were there any activities where you jumped rope or played games?
LI KENG: Oh yes, on Saturdays and Sundays, we had an old rope and we jumped in front of the store, played hopscotch and played jacks, that was fun.
EDAN: And you made a lot of new friends from that?
LI KENG: Oh absolutely, actually I made more friends at school and I met a lot of friends in Chinatown, because there were a lot of Chinese friends living in Chinatown.
EDAN: And also, in your book, I recall, do you still keep contact with Helen Hong and May Lee?
LI KENG: And Norma. I’m sad, I’m very sad that they’re all gone. They are all gone, Norma died in 1989, and Helen Hong died about 5 years ago, and May Lee died about three years ago.
EDAN: Can you describe a typical Chinatown scene?
LI KENG: A typical? A typical Chinatown scene would be people going to their stores to buy food, they went shopping, everyday, sometimes twice, and in those times we didn’t have a refrigerator, so you couldn’t say, “I’m gonna buy something, take it home and put it in the refrigerator.” So when they’re ready to eat lunch, they drop by the grocery store, and pick up whatever they want and cooked the lunch. Then, in the afternoon, they would go back to the grocery stores again and pick up whatever.
EDAN: How did people get to the grocery store or just around Chinatown?
LI KENG: Walking, because it's only four square blocks.
EDAN: Outside of Chinatown, what was the transportation like? Cars? Bicycles?
LI KENG: Well, actually, most of the kids stuck close to Chinatown. Often times, the kids never crossed Broadway, because they were always afraid somebody was going to beat them up. Oh yes, the kids were afraid. So, they kind of stuck closely to Chinatown. Once in a while, the kids would go to a movie – that was all right. But, you don't go across Broadway, beyond 11th [Avenue]. You don't go over to play.
5
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
EDAN: Were the kids afraid of getting beaten up because of their race or because of different territory?
LI KENG: Oh, no, no. I think it's race – more than territory. They were always afraid of being beaten up.
EDAN: So, did people get beaten up inside Chinatown?
LI KENG: No, no, no. It could happen, but I didn't witness anything like that.
EDAN: Was there bargaining in Chinatown?
LI KENG: I really don't know. You're talking about, you know, if I go to the grocery store, and I want to buy something, I would say, “Oh, it's too expensive. Can I pay you something else?” Is that what you're talking about?
EDAN: Yes.
LI KENG: I'm not too clear on that. Because if the grocery store man said, “For the bunch of bak choy, I charge you ten cents,” you just buy it. I don't think that kind of, shall I say, business, or whatever they did, people do – you're thinking of a tourist going to a place and buy something. They say, “Hey, I'll bargain with them.” I don't think so. No, no – I don't think so.
EDAN: What kind of food in China was not available in Chinatown that you really like?
LI KENG: I think you should say, “What kind of food here is different than from the village, that we didn't have in the village?” Okay? The food that we have here – we had no milk in China. No bread that you people know of. We're Southern Chinese, so we didn't eat bread like the Northern Chinese, and we had no such things as fruits for desert, ice cream for desert, candy bars – we never had any of that in China. We were very happy that when we discovered there were so many variety of things that we can eat here.
EDAN: Do you have a favorite food that you found here in Chinatown, like a favorite delicacy that you found?
LI KENG: I really like (states in Chinese)[?], which is very nourishing soup with beef and the soup is kind of little bit on the thick side. I like dong gua, which is wintermelon. I liked dong gua steamed, and I liked zhi yok ban [sp?], which is pork patty. I love that.
EDAN: What kinds of traditions did your elders carry out that you found very different from what you're experienced to? The cultural side? Or even superstitions?
LI KENG: Well, actually, you know in China, when my mother encounters something that is kind of sad,
6
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
she would pray to [?], Goddess of Mercy. She would say, “Oh, please, take care of my husband; I hope he's well in the United States, and so on.”
Over here, I also found that people here in Chinatown, at that time, they also prayed to [?]. Most of the people, they do not go to church as such. Some people did. A few of them went to the Baptist Church, some of them went to the Presbyterian Church, but my family did not.
EDAN: So, what kind of traditions were brought from China to Chinatown?
LI KENG: Well, for example, celebrate Chinese New Year. It was a must. You gather the night before New Year's, and you would have a very simple meal with your own immediate family, and the next day, you stay home. After that, you visit your relatives. You pick a certain day; you open the New Year. Those were traditions that were here, and that were also in China.
EDAN: During the Great Depression, your family was living, let's just say, not living as well, right? You had to work as a junior maid to also pay for the rent. How was that like working for a German lawyer and the family?
LI KENG: It opened another vista for me. Because in Chinatown, you were kind of like this, but as soon as I was able to get out and do something different, the world kind of gradually opened. It opened my eyes to learn about the different family, and about the people – German people – and they're wonderful people; actually, I enjoyed working for them because they were very, shall I say, they treated me like a member of the family. This particular family – I never felt like a maid. I really thought they taught me a lot of things; like the mother of the family, she cooked German food. One time, she cooked raisin and bacon, and I looked at it and I said, “Wow.” It was good. It was good, and she introduced me to pumpernickel bread, and I said, “Wow, it's good. I never had those things before.” And then, of course, listening to them speak English really helped me.
EDAN: How old were you when you were working for them?
LI KENG: I'm trying to think now. About 12, 13, or 14 – something around there.
EDAN: Was it common for young people like you to work and pay for the expenses?
LI KENG: I don't know about the other families, but I do know that many of the girls went to help, in any way they can, babysitting and doing things like that. But, I think my family, even my older sister Li Hong, was also a junior maid. We didn't work that very long. Just before I entered [Oakland] Technical High School, in 1941, I had to quit the job.
EDAN: Why?
7
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
LI KENG: I told my employers that when I get to high school, it would be very difficult to get to the high school from her place, because the high school day was a little bit longer, and I needed to study and concentrate on my work. They understood, but they never had another girl to help them.
EDAN You went to Oakland Technical High on Broadway. How is that different from what you experienced before?
LI KENG: Oh, my goodness. So different from Lincoln. Number one: it had more people, more students; and number two: it had more activities. The courses were much more difficult. Instead of knowing the teachers from grade one to grade nine, each year, [?] would become different teachers because you were in a different grade – you're taking different things. I find that high school teachers were excellent teachers. I really made a lot of friends throughout my high school years too.
EDAN: And, what activities were you participating in?
LI KENG: In high school? Actually, I didn't really participate in anything. Some people joined the band, and some people joined the [?] club. I didn't have time to do any of that .
EDAN: When you entered Oakland Tech, did you feel more acclimated to American culture?
LI KENG: Absolutely. I was getting used to it. I was getting used to it. In 1941, when I entered [Oakland Tech], we've been here for eight years at that time. I've been living in the United States. It was wonderful to meet other people. The Italians, the Germans, and so on, and I find all the boys and girls in high school were very friendly and very kind.
EDAN: What examples of American culture did you experience?
LI KENG: I do know that they were always talking about Easter. They were talking about Christmas. They were talking about Fourth of July. I find that very interesting from the standpoint that I'm getting to know in depth really some of the things that the students would do. Whereas, in Chinatown, we never had time to celebrate Christmas. Not too many of us were Christians. We never had a Christmas tree in Chinatown, and we never celebrated Easter in Chinatown. So, I learned about those things in high school.
EDAN: And, how much American culture did you bring to home?
LI KENG: For the longest time, I tried to be more American by speaking English at home. I dropped my Chinese. My mother never said anything because she understood us. She was picking up English too. And then, my father never said anything about, “Why aren't you speaking Chinese? Why are you just speaking English?”, and never objected. By the time when I went to
8
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
high school, most of the time I would be speaking English at home, because mom and dad, they understood, and the [?].
EDAN: But, besides language, did you dress more American or maybe, you could eat more American?
LI KENG: I think I'm still straddling two worlds. One foot in the Chinese world, and one foot in the American world. It was a time for adjustment for us too.
EDAN: I'm sure during that time, many Chinese families wanted their children to speak Chinese at home. What made your family different?
LI KENG: I really think that my father thought very deeply about this – that if we are going to succeed doing what we want to do later on in life, you must master the language. Not every parent is like that. Although I can't prove it to you that the other parents are not doing the same thing, but my father has already emphasized that we should already be educated.
EDAN: You entered Oakland Tech at the beginning of 1941, just the beginning of World War II. How did World War II affect you?
LI KENG: Well... I have to think about December 7th, 1941. It was a beautiful day on Sunday. I remember getting up – the sun was shining – and I said, “Oh, what a wonderful day.” And then, baba went to Chinatown – you know, it's just a block away from the center -- and at that time, we were living on Harrison Street. So, anyway, he just went to Chinatown and picked up some groceries. He rushed home, and he said, “Ohhh, ohh!”“What's the matter, baba?” [We asked]. He said, “Oh, ohh, the Japanese invaded Pearl Harbor!” (speaks Taishanese) [?] . And then, I said, “Oh, no. It can't be.” “Oh, yes.”
So, Chinatown was in an uproar. They heard the news. I – We didn't have TV to tell us. We didn't have a radio. It was [from] word of mouth. Some people found out about it. We knew – at that time, I said, “Oh my goodness. I didn't think anything like that would happen.” Because, when I went to the movies, I found out that the Japanese ambassador was still negotiating with the United States about not going to war.
I was just shocked, and I worried and I went to school the next day. So anyway, the first day of school, the principal called all of us to the auditorium, and said, “Oh, boys and girls, we don't know what's going to happen. We might get an air raid. If we hear something, everybody will have to go home.” We were really afraid, but of course, we never had an air raid, not in California.
We were very upset because of the fact that now, the United States is in the Second World War, and of course, President Delano Roosevelt asked Congress for permission to declare war on December the 8th. It was very upsetting for us.
EDAN: Can you describe the uproar in Chinatown, or what happened?
9
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
LI KENG: Actually, the Chinese people were kind of worried because we looked like the Japanese. The Japanese looked like us. The Chinese people always felt that Caucasians can not tell us apart. After some of the Japanese neighbors near the Chinatown, next door to us, they were gone. I asked my father, “Where are they? Where are they?” We found that they were taken to [?], taken to some other place, and I said, “Oh, baba, I'm so sorry they left. They didn't have time to say good bye to us.”
And later on, the older people in Chinatown said, “You know, we better make sure that people do not mistake the Chinese people to be Japanese.” So, what many of us did, we wore an armband [stating]: “We are Chinese, We are Chinese, We are Chinese.” We did that for a while, but not very long because after a couple of weeks, all the Japanese were gone.
EDAN: Can you tell us about rationing during the war?
LI KENG: Oh yes, rationing. Well, I remember that they call the Rationing Board. They said, “Each person is only allowed to buy two pairs of shoes.” You’re only allowed to buy so much of everything; a lot of things were saved for the War effort. At that time, I think the [?] were coming up. The ladies were not allowed to buy nylon stockings because the nylon was used to make parachutes. There were other things that were rationed. I don't remember anything else. That's about what I remember during that time.
EDAN: How did this war affect your family's business?
LI KENG: Do you mean the gambling businesses?
EDAN: All businesses.
LI KENG: Oh, all businesses. It really didn't affect Chinatown that much. The Chinese people were still around. They still have to go eat. They still had to take their clothes to the laundry. They still had to do whatever they did. If you're saying whether we had less business, or more business – I don't think it really affected it at all.
EDAN: Were there any benefits of the war?
LI KENG: I don't think there were any benefits. Except for the fact that China joined the Allies, and the Chinese people, more or less, they were looked at with special interest. The Caucasians would look at the Chinese with a much friendlier attitude. That is probably the only benefit I could think of.
EDAN: Why did they look at you -- ?
LI KENG: Because the Chinese are not the Axis. We're not Japanese. We're not fighting, you know, the United States. You see, so the Chinese became friends.
10
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
EDAN: Did this affect any racial controversy between Chinese people and American people?
LI KENG: The Chinese people felt good. It's about time we get recognized. But, we felt sorry about the Japanese.
EDAN: How did you learn about the world events in those days?
LI KENG: Reading the newspaper.
EDAN: And also, what is gee ge, ga ga [sp?]?
LI KENG: [That] is “Yap yap yap yap”. Talking. That's the Toishanese expression.
EDAN: Which newspapers, or what newspapers?
LI KENG: We read the Oakland Tribune, and the Chinese newspapers too (Zhongsan Newspaper)
EDAN: After all this, when did you move out of Chinatown?
LI KENG: In 1948.
EDAN: Why did you choose to move?
LI KENG: Because my father said, Chinatown, the way that we lived for many years, was not good. We need to have a regular house. Remember, every place we lived in Chinatown, we rented. After in 1948, we had enough money to buy a house near Lake Merritt. When you, especially during those days, if a family moves out of Chinatown, it means that economically, they have accumulated some money, and they're able to buy a piece of property. The Chinese very much like to invest in their own home, and they always bought their property with cash.
EDAN: In your book, I remember there was a chapter about the ghosts. Can you describe about the ghost house that you lived in?
LI KENG: Oh, that was on 333, 7th Street. That's the house where my sister Flo was born. After she was born, my mother hired a red [sp?] nurse, a lady had come in to help her for the month. The lady slept with us in the girls room, and one day she said to my mother, “You know, I'm old. (speaks Taishanese). This is a haunted house.” My mother said, “Why?” She said, “Oh, I feel it. I feel the bad vibrations.”
I never felt it. But, my mother believed her, and again, my mother and father were worried and they said, “We have to move.” So, we moved to Harrison Street.
11
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
EDAN: Did your family – did they believe in all the superstitions about ghosts and stuff?
LI KENG: Oh, yes, certainly. A lot of people believed in it.
EDAN: Why do you think they believed in it?
LI KENG: I guess that's the way we were brought up. In China, they did too.
EDAN: What was the main difference living in Chinatown, and living outside of Chinatown?
LI KENG: Ohh. the world opened up 360 degrees. It opened up 360 degrees. When we moved up to near Lake Merritt, there were hardly any Chinese next to us. There were white people, white people, white people, and white people. We were not discriminated in that sense that the owners were willing to sell the house to us, and the people next door were older people. They were very kind, and they were very tolerant, so to speak. We were able to do our shopping along Lakeshore Avenue, and we were able to, shall I say, integrate a lot better with the neighborhood.
Remember, when we were living in Chinatown, all we knew were Chinese families, Chinese families, Chinese families. Although there was nothing wrong with it, but living up there was just another world.
EDAN: Which community do you like better?
LI KENG: I myself liked living up near Lake Merritt, because number one: the streets were clean, with a very few people. In Chinatown, it was very congested. Over time, the gutters were filled with debris, and the Chinese people were kind of haphazard about cleaning, especially the front of the stores. Whereas, up in the residential area, you see green-long nice shades, and shiny windows – the environment was much better.
EDAN: What did you miss about living in Chinatown?
LI KENG: I missed the children, and the friends that I make there. My heart never left Chinatown. I really loved Chinatown, because often times I would go back there and visit, stand there, and look, and say, “Ohh, that's what we did, but that's how we did it,” and so on.
EDAN: What business did your family have during this time when you lived outside of Chinatown?
LI KENG: By that time, in 1943, my father opened a restaurant. The restaurant was in the same place that we lived in. Because the owner, as I told you, demolished the place where we lived, and he put in more stores, and some people started restaurants in the exact spot where we lived. They started a restaurant and they put it up for sale. At that time, my father borrowed three thousand dollars to open a restaurant. So, we took over, and my father named the restaurant,
12
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
Daai Zhong Wa – Great China. It was a coffee shop, as well as we cooked chop suey and chow mien, and things like that.
EDAN: How was your dad's business during this time?
LI KENG: Oh, very good. We were doing a good business.
EDAN: Can you describe a typical day at your family's restaurant?
LI KENG: We open seven days a week, from 11-o-clock in the morning, to 12-o-clock midnight. When my father got up early in the morning, at 5 o clock, he would go down to the produce area, and he personally picked up the vegetables and the things that he wanted for the restaurant. Later on, the produce people was setting up [?]. Later on, my mother would be there at 6-o-clock in the morning. The chefs arrived early to warm up the oven. The chefs would be ready to cook the meat for the day. My mother would help [?] the biscuits and get all the things ready. The doors opened at 11 – lunch time.
People wanted to eat, so roast beef has to be ready, mashed potatoes had to be ready, and soup had to be made. The business during the war years was very good. During the lunch hours, [it was] rush hour. You couldn't find a seat. The dinner hour was very good. The only time that we had it low was in the afternoon – coffee time. But, people would come in and drink a cup of coffee, and they would buy a piece of apple pie ,homemade; chocolate [?], homemade; cream puffs, homemade. [They were] all made by the chefs. So, we did – we worked seven days a week.
In three months, my father made enough to pay back the $3,000 that he borrowed, and then from then on, it was just profit. But, not one of us got paid. [Dad] didn't get paid. Mother didn't get paid. We paid the chef. We paid the dishwasher. We paid the [?] of labor. But, outside of that, they never took salary.
EDAN: Were there customers even late at night around 12?
LI KENG: Shipyard workers.
EDAN: And, what kind of people ate there? Were there mostly Chinese?
LI KENG: A lot of Chinese, but a lot of Caucasians too. They would come at night at 11 or 12 o’clock, and the doors would be closed, and they'd beg and knock on the door. “Sam, open the door, I'm hungry!” And, my father said, “I'm so sorry. We have to close!” And, they'd say, “Ohhh!” They get disappointed. But, they'll come back.
EDAN: What kind of food did you serve? Was it mostly bakery or..?
LI KENG: Not really a bakery. We served, for example, the menu for lunch and dinner was about the
13
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
same except the dinner menu has a little bit more. For example, if you go in for lunch, you might order something like -- “Oh, give me hamburger steak.” Or, you might order -- “I think I'm going to have roast pork.” And dinnertime, we have roast beef prime rib, and other things.
So, the food was very, very good to the customers and the customers liked it, so we were very, very busy. I think from that point on, we were no longer poor. Gradually, we were getting out of the poor days and we were able to accumulate enough money to buy a house.
EDAN: Did you like working in the restaurant?
LI KENG: I didn't mind it, because I felt it was contribution to the family. Not one of us ever objected. Li Hong worked, I worked, and even Li Wong. We were waiter on tables, and we filled the sugar containers, napkin containers; wiped the table stalls, sterilize the glasses [cups? [?]], swept the floors after it closed. We did everything that was needed. It was a family enterprise, and I felt that because of the fact that kids were able to participate in making the business so good, we all benefited. It was a wonderful experience.
EDAN: How did the customers treat you?
LI KENG: Oh, they were very nice. They always thought that I worked very hard, and I did a very good job serving them, and then gave me tips after they finished.
EDAN: How did you spend your tips?
LI KENG: I didn't spend it. I saved it. What I did was everyday after the store [isn't it restaurant? [?]] closed, I would find my coffee cup, my glass jar – full of nickels, pennies, dimes, -- once in a while a quarter, once in a while fifty cents. What I did the next day, I would take all my loose change. I would walk two blocks to Broadway, and I would bank it in the Bank of America.
EDAN: Do you recall how much money you made just from tips?
LI KENG: I was able to accumulate over a thousand dollars. Oh, yes.
EDAN: What were you saving for?
LI KENG: College. Oh yes, it was my own. My father didn't know I had a bank account. Mama didn't know I have a bank account. I decided I'm going to do it on my own.
EDAN: What college did you end up going to?
LI KENG: UC Berkeley.
EDAN: How was that around that time?
14
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
LI KENG: UC Berkeley around 1944 – we didn't have that many students. The tuition was $27.50 for one semester. Books were like a $1. Lab fees were like $5. So, it was inexpensive when you look at it today, in today's price. But, that was a lot of money, and there were a lot of Chinese parents whose parents could not send them to UC Berkeley because they couldn't afford it.
E DAN: Was it normal for Chinese women to attend college back in those days?
LI KENG: It was very unusual in my class – I'm talking about my Lincoln School, class of 41. Norma Young [sp?], I had her in my block. Norma Young and I were the only two girls to went on to UC Berkeley that year. But, we had more boys from that class that year.
EDAN: What were your reasons for going to college?
LI KENG: I always wanted to be educated, and I always wanted to be a schoolteacher. I always felt if I didn't get the good education, I would never forgive myself. I'm just one of these crazy people that likes to learn.
EDAN: As a college student, were you in any college organizations or anything?
LI KENG: Actually, I didn't have time to join anything. The reason why was because the restaurant was open, and when I didn't have classes in the afternoon, I would go to the restaurant and help in the afternoon. I'd go in the morning. But, if I had classes in the afternoon, I would work in the morning. When I got home, I would to the restaurant and help, and I would study late in night. It was not easy.
EDAN: What made you want to be a schoolteacher?
LI KENG: I had that idea when I was a little girl in China, when I was seven years old, my father sent [?] and me to school; we didn't have a school in lour village. [?] and I attended a school maybe a couple of miles away, and the school about that time had about 100 students, and there were only five girls, out of a hundred.
So anyway, my father said, “You know, I want to send [?] and Li-Keng to school.” When the villagers heard about it, “Oh my my, you don't send girls to school!” And then, my mama would answer, “Well, the father wants them to go to school. So, therefore, we'll send them to school.”
So, it was very unusual. You see my father was the man who was thinking way ahead of himself. Even before he brought us over here, later on, when I got older, he said, “You know, the reason why all you girls are over here is I know that if I didn't bring you over here, you wouldn't be able to go to school. I want you to do whatever you want with your life, as long as you are happy doing it.”
15
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
EDAN: Can you tell us about the time your father got shot in a book I read about you?
LI KENG: Oh yeah. We were living in 725 Harrison Street at that time. My brother Bill wasn't born yet. There's Li Hong, Li Keng, and Li Wong. Nelly, Leslie, and Flo, okay? Li Hong and I were at school, 1941. The next-door neighbor came to school and the principal came to the room and said, “You have to come home with this lady.” We didn't know what the reason was.
We dashed home, [and] my mother was crying inside, and the neighbors were all around. “So, what happened, Mama, what happened?” “Oh, Bin Fok [sp?] shot your father, and right now your father's ambulance took him to the hospital. So, therefore, I do not know what happened.”
My mother told us that day, Bin Fok came and to visit mama, baba, okay? And, my mother was very courteous. That's what she's told me. [She] said, “Will you come in and have a cup of tea?” He said, “No!” He was very abrupt with her. He said, “I want to talk to Sam.” That's my father's American name. So, they went back inside to one of the back rooms, and they were arguing about something.
See, my father borrows money from the family association. Because of the time that we didn't ever have enough to eat, and we had a lot of debt, he thought he would be able to pay them back. But, he didn't have enough money to pay him back.
So, the association gave him many opportunities to do that. When father said, “I don't have any money. I wish I could pay you back,” the association officers said, “You know, we have to send somebody like the hatchet man,” and during those days, they called them a hatchet, “Now, we have to send somebody [to] threaten him.” He (the hatchet man) was a Gee also! He was supposed to be our relative! He took it upon himself and carried a gun with him. But, me and mama didn't know. And so, anyway, mama heard the yelling in the back, and then mama heard, BANG! BANG! BANG!, and she knew something was wrong.
In the meantime, he, the assailant dashed out and mama knew baba was lying on the floor. But, she didn't stop to help him. She ran after him. She kicked off her Chinese slippers, and she yelled at the top of her voice. She said, “[in Taishanese](Bin Fok shot) [?].” People in Chinatown all knew us, you see, because they would run in. My mother was chasing them until they got to 9th Street, and two young men, maybe your age, heard mama yelling. They knew mama, so they stopped him. They grabbed the man, and the police was called, and the police took him to jail.
By the way, that young man's wife and I are good friends today. Really, it was terrible. [My father] was in the emergency hospital for 72 hours, and the doctor says, “It's touch and go, it's touch and go. We don't know what's going to happen to Sam.” But, he survived. It took him a long time to recover.
EDAN: Was this kind of violence that occurred common in Chinatown?
LI KENG: No, no. It was very unusual. I'm not talking about the tong wars, or anything like that, but I don't know too much about that. But, no, no. It's very unusual to have something like this to happen in a family.
16
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
EDAN: Was it common for family associations to deal with the problem of violence?
LI KENG: I don't know whether I can answer that question or not, because every family association is different. Maybe in the Lee Family Association, maybe they were good-hearted. “Well, let's not bother them. I'm sure they'll pay us some other day.” So, I couldn't tell you about that.
EDAN: In our pre-interview, you actually told us you knew the dope-mafia came. Can you describe --?
LI KENG: I wouldn't use the word mafia. Let's not use that word.
EDAN: Well, the dope-king in Chinatown came? Describe what made him the king and what he did.
LI KENG: He was very wealthy. Everybody knew who he was. People sort-of looked up to him because he was wealthy and he knew he was dealing in drugs. But, nobody would go to the police and tattle on him. He was a [?] benevolent king. So, if somebody needed money, he would say, “Oh, I'll lend [some] to you. There's no interest. Pay me back when you can.” He did a lot of good things for Chinatown. But, I knew him as a person – he was very nice to me. People did not object to the fact he was, more or less, a drug dealer.
EDAN: What kinds of drugs did he deal?
LI KENG: Opium, opium.
EDAN: Who worked for him?
LI KENG: I wouldn't know. It's very secretive.
EDAN: How did opium affect overall Chinatown?
LI KENG: There were some opium addicts. I know some, but you see them; you can tell [by] the way they look. The face would be kind of yellow-ish; they were very thin because they wouldn't eat properly.
EDAN: Why didn't people object with dealing opium?
LI KENG: I don't know whether people object or not in Chinatown, because we felt that [?], if somebody wants to make money this way, so be it. That was our attitude.
EDAN: How did opium affect Chinatown in general?
LI KENG: The people who smoked opium – not very many; you all understand that – usually were the
17
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
never-do-well people, never stayed a job very long, probably would never send money back to their families in China. They were sort of second-class citizens, so to speak.
BREAK
EDAN: We're now resuming our interview. So, Li Keng, do you still have any objects from the family businesses?
LI KENG: I have an old chair from the restaurant in my garage! I kept it; it's dirty and covered with dust.
EDAN: What about from your life in Chinatown?
LI KENG: I'm trying to think. (pauses) Nothing. We didn't have anything. I'm not kidding you. We didn't have anything. When we had enough money to move to the new house, we didn't bring anything with us!
EDAN: Which events in China had an effect in Chinatown?
LI KENG: Well, I think the war between the Communists and the Nationalists – it affected Oakland's Chinatown quite a bit, because most of the people living in Oakland's Chinatown at the time were very sympathetic to the Gwokmundong [?] (jyut-yin sp?) (Nationalists?). They were not Communists, so they were raising money to do everything that they can, and send it back to the Gwokmundong, and hopefully, they would be able to overcome the Communists.
EDAN: Did people in Chinatown ever argue amongst themselves?
LI KENG: Oh yes! Some people didn't want to do it; no one ever makes them, you know? Some people said, “Oh, leave them alone. Let them kill each other. So what?”
EDAN: What topics would they argue about?
LI KENG: About why, you know, Gwokmundong should win. Some people were, “Well, maybe the Communists have the right idea.” But, they were not Communists – they were just debating.
EDAN: Do you have any funny stories to tell about Chinatown?
LI KENG: I don't know whether this is funny or not, but I remember when we were living in the store, we were so deprived of entertainment – you know, no money to go to the movies, no money to do this, not money to do that – so every Friday night, a group of people from Salvation Army would send maybe around four or five people to come to the 8th and Webster corner, and they would play the music and they would sing. They would hope that we would join up with them. Of course, it's not funny, but the kids kind of were always looking forward towards that in a sense – that was our entertainment for the week! People go to the movie for
18
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
entertainment. That was our entertainment. I don't whether that was funny or not. My brother Bill could probably tell you more.
EDAN: So, when you lived in China, your family was separated. How did it feel to live as a family again in Chinatown?
LI KENG: We loved it. Of course, we wanted to be reunited with our dad. We were very happy to have a man in the family because I grew up with no men around the house.
EDAN: So, Li Keng, I asked you about the funny stories. Would you happen to have any sad stories?
LI KENG: So many sad stories. See, this is what I mean.
EDAN: Could you tell us one that you remember the most?
LI KENG: I think one that I remember the most is that one time, the police came and there were no customers in the gambling room. Only my father and a worker. The police detectives, they carried hammer, a big hammer, and chisel and whatnot, and they went into the gambling room and they destroyed all the gambling table and the things, the chairs. I remember – I was home – watching the police officers yelling and screaming and I remember, even to this day, Lieutenant Parde, P-A-R-D-E, big-strapping man, and do you know what he said?
He said, “You Chinks, go back to China.” It was very sad. I sit down and I just cried. Mother sit there and she cried. The kids, the sisters sit there and they were all crying. It was very sad. I have more sad stories to tell besides that one. That one really stood out.
EDAN: Did it make you want to return to China?
LI KENG: Oh, no, no. It's just one of the things that happened. We sort of accepted it. We got to the point when we said, “You know, that's part of having, you know, a gambling place.” My father never really wanted to do it. He only did it because it was necessary – to make money, to raise his family.
EDAN: When did your dad, or when did your family close the lottery business?
LI KENG: I think we closed it just before Bill was born. I don't remember what year, but baba (father) knew there was no way for him to continue. So, I think it was after the incident being shot. There was no way for him to continue; so therefore, we had to give it up. No way to run a business like that, and so, I don't remember exactly what year.
EDAN: Can you tell us about your book and why you wrote it?
LI KENG: Oh yes. Right after I retired, I started with a writing class, and I was going to write my
19
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
autobiography, and I started. And, the instructor said, “You know Li Keng, your life is so interesting. Why don't you write it and get it published?” So, I said, “Oh no, ma'am, I'm not a writer. I'm here to have fun.” “[?] Go on and get it published.” She told me that [for] fifteen years. Every year – “when are you going to write it, when are you going to write it?”
So, finally, in 1999, Hollywood called. They said Disney wanted to make a documentary, and the documentary would be called, The American Tapestry: Searching for the American Dream. They would like to have me to participate in the documentary. How did they find me? They went to the archives, [and] they found my entry papers, and they also went to the Angel Island Foundation. They found out who I was. When they called up the Angel Island Foundation, – my brother-in-law was a docent – they started to ask, “Does anybody know a lady by the name of Li-Keng Wong?” Edward went, “Yeah, she's my sister-in-law!”
What a small world. So, he gave my telephone number, and the people in Hollywood called me up and said, “We would like to have you.” I said, “Ohhhh, are you sure? What is there for me to say?” “Don't worry. We think your story has a buried one that's documentary.”
So, the producer flew up from Los Angeles. She was here for one day, just like you people, and she interviewed me for, you know, taping and asking all kinds of questions. So finally, she took it back to Hollywood, and she checked with her producer. [?]He said, “Li Keng's story has to be told. We got to get here in here!” I said, “Okay, it's right about time to write my book.” That started me off.
I started actually thinking about it in 2000, and I was very happy with it. Just briefly , and my instructor said there were a lot of possibilities. She said, “Don't worry, I'll be your editor.” In other words, as I worked along, she will be able to encourage me and tell me how to go about it. It took me a long time, because I told you,
Roger was not well. My husband, he started to get sick around 1999. Whenever he got sick, I put this aside. So, I went off like this for the next five years. Roger was like this because his health was so poor. So finally, I finished it in 2000, I finished it.
I send it in to three publisherSAKURA: Scholastic in New York, and Peachtree. I picked out the publisher from just a book. I said, “I like the name. Let me try it.” The first two companies said, “No, we don't like your book.” Peachtree said, “Yes, Li-Keng, we love your book. We would like to buy your manuscript. But, your story is not long enough. We want it to be longer.” I said, “Ohh, how many more pages?” She's like, “Sixty more pages.” I said, “How much time do I have?” She said, “Two months.”
So, I had to really concentrate on it and I finished it and sent it in, and I waited for another year before I heard from them. After hearing from them, they said, “We're ready [to] send you a contract.” I said, “Okay.” So, I hire a lawyer in the meantime, and the lawyer was able to read the contract and to make sure things would work out. They said, “Okay Li-Keng, your book will be out in 2-0-0-6.” So, I was just absolutely thrilled when it came out. So last year, I was at OACC where Anne was, and was kind enough to help Angel Island Foundation. So, we launched the book that day. And, it's been doing really well.
EDAN: Why is it important to write this book?
20
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
LI KENG: Number one: I wanted to leave a legacy for my two kids, for my three grandchildren, for my extended family. Number two: I wanted to educate people, whether they're Chinese or not, whether they're my family or not; I felt it was part of California history. It's also a part of United States history. To me, the process of educating other people, with my story, hopefully they will have a better understanding of different ethnic groups.
EDAN: Why is Chinatown's history an important part of America's history?
LI KENG: Because Chinatown is a part of the history of California. Every Chinatown is. People came over during the Gold Rush; the men did, anyway. They left their wives at home, and they died here working here, and they helped build the Transcontinental Railroad. They helped the truck-farming in California. In fact, the Bing cherry was invented by Chinese men. They called it Bing because the name was Bing.” They said, “Call it a bing cherry.”
EDAN: What are some problems that Chinatown is facing today and what do you think are the historical reasons for this problem?
LI KENG: Since I don't [go] there anymore, I can't tell you. But, I do know that we have a lot more people – not just Chinese people, we have people from India; we have people from the Philippines. We have people from all over; Koreans and whatnot. And so, I find that Oakland's Chinatown today is a very thriving area for Oakland. Thriving in a sense that it brings a lot of tax money into Oakland. And, I find it a very exciting place today. The people who are now in Chinatown, they are more educated than the people in my days. They seem to understand that in order to make a good living, they have to do things with the Americans, and they have to cooperate. And, many of the people doing business in Chinatown [are] very well educated. The bankers and the doctors, and the architects and what else, the other people? I find it very exciting today. As far as knowing anything about it, I really can't tell you any more.
EDAN: Why is it important for you to stay connected to Chinatown?
LI KENG: I have always thought that Chinatown was my roots. The beginning of the [?] Clan growing up. Our roots were there. I am very fond of it. I always think back in the days when we were struggling, and I had a lot of good memories too. I'm very grateful – that's where we got started.
Therefore, my heart never left. When I have friends coming in from out of state, I would take them to Chinatown for dinner; I would show them around – where we lived, where Nellie was born, where Leslie was born, and such and such , and my Chinese school, and such and such, there was a church, and I would explain to them too, “Chinatown during my days, we never had an American regular drug store. We never had a jewelry store. We never had an American doctor. America, I'm talking about the Chinese men working as physicians. We had Chinese doctors, but they were herbalists at the time.” Chinatown today, is doing a really good job of drawing other people back to Chinatown for celebrations, for visits, and so on. Next
21
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
Tuesday, Bill is going to lead the group from Sunnyvale. My sister Flo and [?], they live in Sunnyvale. They're going to bring a group of senior citizens, and Bill is going to be leading them on a tour, and I guess I will be following them around.
EDAN: When you look back at your childhood in Chinatown, what do you feel nostalgic about?
LI KENG: I really miss the friendliness, and the good-heartedness of our neighbors. Mrs. Fong of [?], Mrs. Gee across the street, Mrs. Gee [at] the corner, and all the different families that I remember. I remember the children socialized together, and I remember that despite the fact we didn't have a lot of material things, but the friendship we build up as kids -- I'm still communicating with those kids today! Of course, we're all older people now.
EDAN: Do you have any photos of these neighbors?
LI KENG: No. I wish I did. No. You must remember during those days – no money. Where would we get money to buy a camera? You see what I'm saying?
EDAN: How has Chinatown changed in your lifetime?
LI KENG: I think for the better. I feel that today, the business owners are very able to run a business well. They know how to go about it, and they no longer, for example, have any illegal lottery places anymore! Right? They don't have any [?], or ironing and laundry anymore. All the people who working there today, whether it's big store or little store, they seem to know exactly how to make their business run well and how to make money. They're doing it, and I have to say, I really admire the people who are working so hard, day in and day out, day in and day out.
EDAN: What makes you proud of Chinatown?
LI KENG: I think I'm very proud of Chinatown because (pause) if California doesn't have any Chinatown –– I feel that there will be a void of our rich history, our contributions, to the diversity of California, to the diversity of the other states.
EDAN: And what would you like people to know about Chinatown?
LI KENG: About Chinatown? I think if I were leading a tour, if I were doing it, I probably would try to compare the days that I was living, way back in the 30s, and compare it to the days the people are there now. I really think that the Chinese people have come a long, long way. The people in Chinatown, they're all college-educated.
EDAN: What makes Chinatown, Chinatown?
LI KENG: I think number one – I think it's the food; restaurants, grocery stores. Another thing that makes
22
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
Chinatown is because when you go down there, most of the people, you see Chinese. What if you go out, to let's say, Stoneridge Mall, or someplace else, and then you'll feel, sort of – you know you have a kindred feeling about the people. Even though you don't know them, or they don't know you, you have a feeling – gee, I'm within my own. You feel kind of at home.
EDAN: During our pre-interview meeting, you said, “Maybe if more people learned about the history of others, maybe the world wouldn't be in such turmoil.” Can you say more about this?
LI KENG: Oh yes, absolutely. I found that in my own teaching experience, when you go into the classroom – let's say you were all in my classroom. Well, I notice that you're different, right? And, I look at them, but did you know in two minutes, I will not see that anymore, because we're all human beings. I don't see the difference anymore after that, you see?
I have always felt that (pause) working with people – people are people no matter what. All human beings – you need housing, you need a caring family, you need food, you need a good education, and you need to obey the law – all human beings are the same. The only difference is the color of our skin. But, after you get to know them, you don't know the color of your skin anymore.
Recently, in my experience of visiting a 3rd grade class, up in the hills in Oakland – Grass Valley School. i walked in; the whole school – and I was absolutely astonished – [was] all African-American. I've never been to a school with all African-Americans. And, I walked into the teacher's room – she's white – she invited me, and she said, “You know, Li, I want you to be here. I want these kids to meet you, so that they would know that there are other people besides African-Americans. But, in five minutes, I forgot they were African-Americans! They were funny, and they were courteous, and they asked a lot of intelligent questions, and they were kids! I enjoyed the experience tremendously, and before I left, the principal came and talked to me, and said, “Mrs. Wong, you opened up the world for these kids today, and you are welcome to come back next year.”
I've always felt that if you know me, as a person, and I know you people, as [people], then there wouldn't be so much racial prejudice. A lot of people, when they don't know other people, they jump to conclusions -- “Oh, I hate [?]!” – this kind of thing. But, it's not true. There might be one or two that you might not like, but the other people are just as good as everybody else. Does that answer your question?
EDAN: Yes. So, what do you think is the most important overall story to tell future generations about the history of Oakland's Chinatown?
LI KENG: I think for you two young people, for Sakura and you, Edan, is to make sure you interview your seniors, and know your history, and pretty soon your grandpa, and pretty soon, everyone else in your family will not be here anymore. But, you have something to cling on to. So, therefore, if you know your history, you're able to share your history with other people, and you'll be very proud of your own heritage, and I feel that is very, very important for you to do.
23
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
EDAN: So, why is it important to know your heritage and be proud of it?
LI KENG: If you know your heritage, if you know the history of your own background – whether you're Chinese, whether you're Japanese, whether you're Irish – just knowing what happened in the past, you're going to learn what they have done in the past, and try to not to make the same mistakes that they made.
EDAN: And, can you give an example of what you have learned in the past?
LI KENG: Well, you know, my father always told us that you honor your parents; right or wrong, they are your parents – you honor them. You should work really closely with your family to have a harmonious family, and you should also consider our long [Chinese] history, five thousand years or so; and, you should also think about all the things that have happened in the years past – loyalty to the clan, loyalty to your own family, and loyalty to your own sisters and brothers, and loving and nurturing your own family, if you have one.
Those are the things I value very much; family gatherings, family celebrations, and staying in touch – the individual doesn't count a lot the ways we were taught. It's the family. It's the clan, [and] that's very important.
EDAN: And, how have these lessons affected your life?
LI KENG: Well actually, at this point, we have six sisters and brothers. One sister died; Leslie died. So, we do have the effect of us in the sense that we get together. Fourth of July, Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, Thanksgiving, New Chinese New Year's celebration, birthday celebrations – [these] keep us in the loop, so to speak. And, we wouldn't know what each of one of us is doing, or has been doing.
So, when we keep in touch, or keep up in touch, with one another, then when you know the person, you say – Gee, you know, Edan, did you do well in your test? I would ask you questions like that. And, if you do not keep in touch with those relationships, pretty soon, your family is going to disintegrate. When you don't know what's happening, you're missing out a lot.
My immediate – on [September] 10th, we're going to celebrate Nelly's birthday. She's going to be 73. So, Bill, Nelly, my [?], and I are going to take her out to lunch. For two hours, we'll sit there and catch up with each other [and ask], “What have you been doing? What are you doing? [?]”. We do that five times a year – just the five of us.
Within my own family, I make sure that I see my grandkids, and I make sure I see my son, and I make sure that I see my daughter, and I would have them here.I would say, “You know what, [?], I need something”, “What do you think about this?” “How do you think we should go?”. If I need a new car, I would call him up and say, “I need a new car. What do you think I should buy?” Things like that.
I feel that once you keep up that close relationship, you yourself will benefit. You'll say, “Aww, isn't that great?” I know what the kids are doing. I know what the grandchildren are
24
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
doing. I know what my sisters are doing. I know what my nephews are doing; grandnieces and grandnephews, and even friends. Despite the fact that I had friends that died, I still call them up – the ones that are still living – and we chat, for no reason at all. [I would say], “Hello, Mary. How are you doing? How is your husband? How are the kids?” Just to be kind, to be thoughtful, to be thinking of others.
EDAN: So, what is your message to your children, your grandchildren, and future historians?
LI KENG: I think I already told you – you're going to be future historians. Okay? You do your part. And then, the message to my own kids – and I'm very fair – “You know, as momma dies, everything is going to split this way.” I have one son and one daughter. I'm not going to say, “Just because my son is a son,” I'm not going to say, “You get 45%, 85%, and then my daughter gets 15[%].” I said no. I told them, “50/50.”
And therefore my grandchildren, I also told them, “Whatever is left is divided by three parts.” One third, one third – I only have three grandchildren. I also told them, “Whatever happens, you have to keep close in touch,” and they are. They're good friends, too, besides being brother and sister.
And then, the three cousins, and I say, “No matter what, you have to stay close in touch, and really be concerned and think about your cousins; think about what you are doing.” I tell my grandkids, “Okay, you're young, but try to make this world a better place, and then leave your mark in this world, years and years from now when you are not here. Leave a mark so that you are leaving a legacy, whether it is your kindness, whether it is – it's not so much about money – but, one thing that you are leaving something – to be sure that you get along; and if you don't get along, you know, try to solve the problem, because we all know that when families -- the sisters and brothers-- do not speak to each other; mother and daughter– it's pretty sad. To me, that is just the most awful crime, if it happens.
I'm just generally speaking. So, fortunately, our family seems to get along really well. But, we fight; we fight once in a while. But, after we blow up, somebody says, “Oh, okay. I understand what you are trying to say.” And, we say, “We forgive.”, and we go on from there. We're not going to bring it up again. The past is the past. Oh yes, I fight with my brother and sister all the time, but we get together; we're still friends.
EDAN: So, why are you interested in participating in this project?
LI KENG: I think I would like to set an example for other people to do the same thing. There are a lot of senior citizens who do not like to share their feelings, because that's the way they were taught. They don't want to talk about it, and I find that I like to talk about it; I'm one of these people. It's a very important thing to talk about sharing my stories, [because] right now, how is my book influencing other people? I don't know, but I do know that it's being read by junior high kids of California. It's also being used in different states. It's also [a part of] Kansas City reading circle. It's all over the nation, and it's even up in Canada.
So, perhaps by having a book like this, I would encourage people to write their stories. If
25
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
they don't get it published, that's all right. But, to write their stories and to be sure that their stories are carried on to the next generation.
With a book, you have something black and white that you can refer to, okay? With a recording, that's good too – whatever. But, I find that this is a part of history, right? Right now, it's in the Bancroft Library in Berkeley, and in the Far Eastern Library in Berkeley – so, this is a part of history 100 years from now, and I'm not going to be here, but the book will be here.
EDAN: Why is it important for the stories to carry on to generations, for generations?
LI KENG: I do want them to know that the early Chinese who came to the United States – they lived a very hard life, but they were the ones – my father's generation – who paved the way for me. I would consider myself sort of an early immigrant, and I want them to know, despite the fact that I had to go through all the hardship, I want them to know that I also helped them to pave the way to make life a little bit easier for them.
My old children, they don't even know [what] racial prejudice is. They don't encounter that today. They live up in the suburbs, and the people – they're just people. That's a lot of change, in the last seventy years that we've been here!
EDAN: Then, so what lessons do you want to pass on to future generations today?
LI KENG: (pause) Number one: get a good education as a foundation. You don't have to make a lot of money, a PhD, or whatnot. But, as far as your own satisfaction, when you read something, you say, “Yes, I know something about it. I know what's going on.” It's for your own satisfaction. Of course, if you want to become a multi-billionaire, that's fine too – with a good education. That's number one. Okay? Get a good education.
Number two: be a law-abiding citizen. Be honest with your dealings with other people.
And, number three: treat other people as if you wanted to treated like them. I don't know, I'm not preaching, but that's the way I feel. I do see both of you – I see a good future for both of you; I see a good future for you two ladies; and, I am very happy when people do well, especially children doing well, and not goofing around and not become dope-addicts – I'm talking about out on the street – [or] breaking the law. Make this world a better place
EDAN: Why is it important to remember your heritage?
LI KENG: I think if you remember your own heritage, and the teachings that have been going on for thousands of years, you will become a better person. Knowing what's been taught throughout the years – and it worked – closeness of family, loving a family, treat your wife well, treat your husband well, raising good children.
EDAN: And lastly, what traditions are important for the younger generation to carry on?
LI KENG: Okay, for you Chinese kids, be sure you know how to speak your own language. If you don't,
26
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
that's okay – I'm not going to say you must. But, to me, if you are able to speak Cantonese or Mandarin, or, you know, besides English, like French, you'll become a much richer person in a sense that – not that you are showing off that you can speak five languages – but it makes you a better person so that you can know all the different languages, and so therefore, you understand all the different people. It's very important, so you keep up with your Mandarin. You speak Mandarin? Keep up your Mandarin. Very good. Very good.
EDAN: Well, then, I think that wraps up our interview. Is there anything else you would want to add?
LI KENG: Oh no, I enjoy myself. I hope I did all right.
EDAN: Well, thank you.
27
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
EDAN QIAN & SAKURA HUANG
POST-INTERVIEW INTERVIEW
INTERVIEWER: Angela Zusman
INTERVIEW DATE: August 26, 2007
INTERVIEW LOCATION: Li Keng Wong’s home, San Leandro, California
ANGELA: Hello, my name is Angela Zusman, and it's August 26th [2007], and I'm interviewing Edan Qian and Sakura Huang after their interview of Li Keng Wong at Li Keng's house. First of all, great interview, you guys; good job, [and] great teamwork. How did it feel to conduct the interview?
EDAN: It actually felt pretty good because I had the list of questions in front of me and it was kind of like a conversation, but [at] the same time I had good questions to keep the conversation going.
ANGELA: What did you guys learn today about Chinatown's history?
EDAN: So much.Especially during World War II, and the Great Depression Era – I learned so much about, basically [the] overall life of Chinatown.
ANGELA: Can you give us a specific example?
EDAN: Well the thing that impacted me the most was probably Li Keng's legal, or illegal gambling business during the Great Depression. I thought that was really cool. Well, yeah. (laughter) And, the effects of it are pretty interesting too, and especially the rationing; and, they couldn't use nylon, and things like that.
ANGELA: I'm just going to pause for one moment. Li Keng, can you hear? I would love for you to hear. Well, Sakura, what did you learn today about Oakland Chinatown history?
SAKURA: Well, as a joke, I learned that – well, actually, not a joke because Li Keng worked very hard at her family's store; and with all the tips she earned – I'm sure she had more money for college than she needed; and I also learned that even back then. I also learned that the society of Chinatown was very close back then.
Because today, it's so much larger, that you can't – It's kind of impossible to know everybody; you only know like people here and there, and personally I think that it's a little harder today to like go up to somebody and just meet them as if they were your neighbor, even though you don't know them at all.
I also learned that in Chinatown there were actually –.... In Li Keng's family store, they actually served more American types of food like mashed potatoes and things like that. I'm not sure if there is that type of American food served in Chinatown today, but, yeah – that was interesting to learn.
28
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
ANGELA: What did you learn today about life lessons?
EDAN: From all the interviews I've been in – definitely family and keeping those traditions alive, which is kind of why I keep coming back to do this. A lot of the traditions that you got to keep alive really impact you in the future, and if you don't remember them, then you're basically pretty lost in your family – in your little family circle that you're in. So, definitely keep track of your roots is a big one that I will definitely learn.
ANGELA: What traditions does your family have that you would like to keep alive?
EDAN: For my family, we always have – kind of like what Li Keng's family has in Christmas – the main holidays [when] we always get together, have big dinners, and a lot of talking. My dad is really close with his brothers, so they love to hang out a lot. They loved doing that and my cousins are very cool and – those traditions we should definitely keep alive.
SAKURA: I totally agree with what Edan said. I also hope that whatever connections we don't have right now – maybe in the future, I can try to bring our family closer together. And because we are separated by an ocean, I wish I could – maybe, we should have like more regular conversation.
Personally, I'm not really a good communicator with my family. So perhaps at least with the family that's with my generation, like my cousins, because I'm an only child, that I should communicate with them more often through technology. I'm sure that my cousins have a lot to say to me, and I have a lot to say to them when we do.
ANGELA: Was there a story that you heard today that you really related to?
EDAN: (pause) I don't think I could relate that well to all the stories, because the stories told were pretty interesting, and my life isn't pretty interesting. So, maybe the closest thing is just the family values part; but other than that, like the Great Depression era and all that, I can't really relate that well. It was great learning about it.
SAKURA: I guess the closest thing I can relate to is Li Keng wanting to have an education for herself, and oh! My mom and dad want me to have a good education. And also, her family allowed her to speak English back home. Personally, I would rather speak Chinese at home, because I thought I can't lose my Chinese, as Li Keng said – to remember your own language, because I think that's a very big part that connects me to China and my other family members.
And also, the fact that her parents, Li Keng's parents, allowed her to speak English at home – I see that as a, something that's different from the regular Chinese parents, who are very strict and probably would not allow that. I feel that my parents, especially my mom, who's the same way because – although she definitely wished that I would have a good education, she always gives me recommendations instead of forcing me to do some things. So, if I feel differently, she says it's okay – do whatever you want, even though she might feel a
29
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
little bit angry.
ANGELA: What did you hear today that inspired you?
EDAN: I love the story about Li Keng saving her money from tips, and that definitely inspired me to save money in a way, because– I couldn't believe, just from tips, she saved a thousand dollars and she created a bank account by herself – did not tell her parents – and always cashed in just those nickels and pennies – and occasionally 50 cents – and it eventually turned out to be a thousand dollars, to which I'm shocked by and also inspired. So, that was amazing.
SAKURA: I personally am inspired by Li Keng's speech about family and how a family should be a family, even though we have issues sometimes against each other. I really hope in the future, my family – when I'm old, my family will be in the same way Li Keng's family is.
ANGELA: Did participating in this project – what have you learned in the importance of talking to your elders?
EDAN: Well, I know for a fact that if you don't find out more, the history won't be learned at all; which is why just by looking at an elder, you might not think there's a lot to be told; but then, if you really go into their life, you will find out a lot of different stories to be told.
That's the same thing with my grandma – on the outside, she just talks and talks about nothing, but then, you'll find out later – I might even interview her later, but you'll find out later she's part of some Communist thing and she actually rebelled against Mao Zeodong [and] got beaten up and got thrown into jail. I would never know that just by looking at her or by hearing her talk. If you delve into her life, you'll find out so much about her life.
ANGELA: And, how does that change your feelings towards her to know her history?
EDAN: It definitely changed me or definitely changed my feelings toward her because – like I said, I look at her; I see her as a grandma. But then, the fact that she rebelled and she was kind of like, maybe a hippie, -- she definitely rebelled a lot, I see my grandma way different – probably cool. (laughter)
ANGELA: What have you learned in this project that makes it important to talk to elders?
SAKURA: I think Li Keng's words today about how some grandparents are not willing to share their feelings; maybe that doesn't apply to my grandma especially, because my mom says she loves to go to her friends just to talk. So, some elders just don't have a way to open up to their family, maybe, because like, for example, my mom and I don't really – we think of her when she goes into a story sometimes, she's just imagining things, maybe.
Sometimes, we should just listen to those stories; and perhaps, we should just follow that storyline and maybe really consider the situation at the time, [and] maybe we can put
30
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
little pieces of the puzzle together, and preserve it in our own version. But also, that we should take into account why maybe they would maybe change the story here and maybe change the story there, because My grandma likes to boast about.
ANGELA: What kind of elder would you like to be?
EDAN: Mixed between Li Keng and my [?], I guess. I definitely want to be the one to remember things, because memories are good, and you will definitely – those life experiences will accumulate and if you don't remember it, then history is going to be lost and you can't tell other people about it, whether they like to hear it or not.
Overall, this information that's being remembered – you still have to pass it on. If you don't pass it on, unlike this project we have going on, if we don't pass it on, maybe Li Keng's words wouldn't be heard by anybody else and no one else would know what her life was like. But fortunately, she wrote a book about [her history], which is another good thing. And, maybe that's the kind of elder I want to be when I grow up.
SAKURA: I would also like to be as spirited as Li Keng is and living to share my story with the entire world – even though I don't remember much of my childhood.But, what they say is in your later years, all your memories come back to you; so, that's a very good time to maybe just settle down. But, still be active in your community; and perhaps maybe just, if I'm bored, or if I feel like it, then I would definitely write, and write about myself, or write about Chinatown, or write about Shanghai, because there's so many things to just write about. Even though I'm not a good writer, I'm sure I'll come up with a book. At least, maybe as interesting as Li Keng's, hopefully.
ANGELA: What are the benefits of this kind of project that's for Chinatown?
EDAN: Definitely preserving the history; but also, a lot of elders in Chinatown don't really speak out – well, maybe they do, but no one really hears it. So this project actually allows a lot of the elders who have experienced Chinatown throughout the years to actually tell about what happened over these years. Then, you get a series of information that accumulates from a very early point of time in Chinatown, to maybe even present. At the same time, there's different situations, I guess, that happens during Chinatown where maybe Li Keng describes Chinatown during the Great Depression; someone else might describe Chinatown during a different point of time – it's interesting to see how these two contrast, and they're happening at the same time.
SAKURA: I think this is a great inspiration for Chinatown, other than something to just preserve its history, because we are doing it in a different way; not with the books, as Li Keng has, with her autobiography, because personally, kids today, would never personally go into a library and look for a book, like Li Keng's book. But, this way, – I'm not saying Li Keng's book is not good or anything; I think it's wonderful – we can have maybe, put this online, on television or
31
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
whatever, and maybe we can reach to that majority of the population, who would never go look for a book on Chinatown's history. I think that's how we – and also, we have, and anybody can do this, and – maybe this is an inspiration because this will inspire other elders, other kids, other adults, to conduct their interview.
ANGELA: And, what are the benefits for participating in this project for you?
EDAN: Well, interview skills, definitely. Other benefits? Jjust, hopefully remembering all this information, and I bet I will. But just knowing a lot more about Chinatown, because I just moved here, and I don't know much about Chinatown, or even the history during this time. So, it's way interesting to learn about Li Keng's view point or Ted Dang's viewpoint on Chinatown during this time. That's definitely a big benefit because, later on, I'll still remember this and I can still contrast Li Keng's Chinatown with my Chinatown, and maybe my grandchildren's Chinatown; we can see how that changes over time, and how much it's changed and that's definitely a big benefit to finally look back on.
ANGELA: Why is it a benefit to notice why things changed?
EDAN: Because, once you see things change over time, you'll still remember how it started and you'll remember what it's like in the present; maybe, we made mistakes, but those mistakes we've learned in the past can be avoided in the future and it's always a big benefit to look back and see our trail in our Chinatown and maybe fix [those mistakes], if that's possible.
SAKURA: I guess I'm here for the inspiration. As I said before, because the elders, their stories inspire us, this project inspires whoever may see the project, participate in the project, and what is inspiring – anything or anybody can become an inspiration. So, that’s why I think this is a very important project to be a part of.
ANGELA: What's your message to the elder generations?
EDAN: You mean right now? My message, I guess from a teenager standpoint, I don't have a message because I haven't experienced that much, but I definitely want to say thank you for sharing your experiences, because that definitely helps, and we can definitely see changes.
SAKURA: My message is I guess, to contrast to thank you, we're sorry if we don't remember any of your stories that you tried to tell us, and we didn't remember, because maybe a part of you just disappeared with that story. From, like in the future, to us, a part of you will disappear with that story, but we – I hope we regret it. We wouldn't regret that and we will still remember you as a great, great person – a great grand-person, a great grandma, a great great-aunt, uncle, and so on.
ANGELA: Is there anything else you would like to add today?
32
LI KENG WONG INTERVIEW
EDAN: Just stay true to your roots, like most of this interview – or all the interviews we done – real messages stay true to your roots.
ANGELA: What does it mean to stay true to your roots?
EDAN: Keep the traditions alive. You got to understand where you came from. Don't be ashamed that you might seem different around other people, but you have something special that makes you different. Maybe it's your language. Maybe it's your type of tradition that different people don't celebrate. Or, whatever it might be, you should definitely be proud of that and stay true to your roots.
SAKURA: I guess my message is to embrace the idea of past traditions, and also embrace the future, because I know Li Keng, even as an elder, she uses the Internet, and I think that's a very cool thing to do. I forgot something else I was going to say, but yeah, that was all.
ANGELA: Great, anything else you want to say?
EDAN: Thank you, Li-Keng.
(laughter)
Li-Keng: Oh, you're welcome.
ANGELA: Thank you very much. That concludes our interview.
33
